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 Super Knocking is spreading but Citreon are on top of it...Sort of!

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coopert
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coopert

Location : Pulborough
Join date : 2009-09-29
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Super Knocking is spreading but Citreon are on top of it...Sort of!  Vide
PostSubject: Super Knocking is spreading but Citreon are on top of it...Sort of!    Super Knocking is spreading but Citreon are on top of it...Sort of!  Empty19th May 2013, 23:40

Here is a section of a thread on the subject seems most of the problems stem from a badly conceived PCV system. The last paragraph/post says it all!

This thread is dealing with "knocking problems". Does this mean the standard "engine knocking" (abnormal combustion)? Or also the "Super knocking" (it is called like that in the error memory by Peugeot, I think that means "pre-ignition"), this is especially a problem of direct injection engines? While the standard knocking is already bad for the engine, the super knocking/pre-ignition is even worse...since the it appears whilst the compression, when the piston is going up. The standard knocking appears after ignition, and hence closer to the time when the piston goes down, such that the pressure can be released earlier.

While standard knocking can for sure be caused by timing problems, is this also the case for super knocking?

As far as I know, in case of the THP engine there are two main reasons that can cause super knocking: carbon deposits (especially at the back side of the intake valve) caused by the crankcase ventilation system. Since it is a direct injection engine, the back side of the intake valve doesn't get cleaned by fuel. Another possibility can be a insufficient injection. The injection is done whilst the compression phase (the THP engine works only in homogeneous, never in stratified-charge operation). Hence, in order to get a homogeneous distribution of fuel, one needs a high pressure and good working injectors. If the high pressure fuel pump doesn't produce a high enough fuel pressure in the common rail, or if a injector is not working correctly, the fuel-air-mixture isn't homogenous. I think, that the cooling property of the fuel will not work then?! What exactly happens I don't know. But this not optimal injection/air fuel mixture can suffer from a pre-ignition. A defect high pressure fuel pump was the reason for super knocking at my car last year.

Can anyone confirm all these ideas? Do I make something wrong? Can there be other reasons for super knocking?

Furthermore, in this context: In case of the 200 THP engine, Peugeot removed the PCV (crankcase ventilation) that goes directly to the intake manifold. See http://www.etuners.gr/en/index.php?s=12&t=299. This can also be applied to the 150/156 THP engines by simply removing this hose as explained in the link. But, in http://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/drivetrain-cooper-s/200835-occ-needed-on-2011-mcs-8.html there is a discussion about the N18 mini cooper S engine, that is compatible with the 200 THP Peugeot engine. In Posting 175 AZblackOUT wrote:

"The valve cover has 3 individual runners going down the backside and into 4 port holes for each intake port. The gasket secures these areas separate as we saw in the diagram. The Valve cover is not only equipped with a check valve to stop flow up, but it also is equipped with a vacuum restrictor to prevent overflow down."

Some of the writer say that the outer hose going from the valve cover to the intake manifold is removed. But there is now a internal connection between valve cover PCV and the region of the intake valves. This would mean, that the 200 THP engine still has both PCV connections. Is this true? If it is true, one should really think if it is a good idea to remove one hose in case of the 150/156 THP engines?! Nevertheless, if the PCV only goes over the turbo (when the hose to the intake manifold is removed) and the charge air cooler: in that case, the dirt/crankcase gas/oil mixture will only go through the charge air cooler, and it would work like a oil catch can, but it cannot be emptied. If think in future there will be problems due to this?! Furthermore, the turbo is very hot. Maybe carbon buildup can develop inside the turbo?!

Many ideas, many questions...but all conncected to knocking, especially super knocking... and possible explanation and solution attempts.
My207CC

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Re: Peugeot 207 1.6 Turbo - Knocking problems
by Pepsimax ยป Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:22 pm
Detonation on the THP engines is caused by the oil ingestion in the rear PCV lowering the effective octane rating of the fuel by approx 40 ron points.

I had this on a new DS3 THP156 which got so bad it destroyed a piston land, and the new engine started detonating almost instantly, so no carbon build up there. Deleted the rear PCV and all detonation stopped, oil consumption greatly impreoved also.
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Moon

Moon

Join date : 2011-07-10
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Super Knocking is spreading but Citreon are on top of it...Sort of!  Vide
PostSubject: Re: Super Knocking is spreading but Citreon are on top of it...Sort of!    Super Knocking is spreading but Citreon are on top of it...Sort of!  Empty19th May 2013, 23:46

Very useful Very Happy

A lot of people slate Citroen, but we've had nothing but good experiences with them. Far more reliable than all the BMWs we've had, although not quite up to land rover, but at a fifth of the price..
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coopert
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coopert

Location : Pulborough
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Super Knocking is spreading but Citreon are on top of it...Sort of!  Vide
PostSubject: Re: Super Knocking is spreading but Citreon are on top of it...Sort of!    Super Knocking is spreading but Citreon are on top of it...Sort of!  Empty19th May 2013, 23:49


Here is the fix


The problem is the PCV rear pipe





Hi everyone

Due to the THP engine being direct injection, i.e direct into the cylinder, and the way the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) is laid out, a lot of oil haze gets sucked into the combustion chamber, past the valves and is burnt.

Well, that's how it's supposed to work!

In reality, this oil haze can cause numerous faults to standard engines, and any remapping or free flowing air filter arrangements can magnify the problems.

The 2 main problems are:-

1. Oil carbonising around the intake valve, which causes very rough running which then requires the dealer to spray a special solution to dissolve this carbonisation (like Seafoam)

2. When shutting down, because of vaccums within the engine and the layout of the rear PCV pipe, oil is left to collect in it, and when starting, assuming you drive easily until warm, is still sitting in the pipe because of the Valvetronic valve system on the THP engines, which under light load only partially opens the valves. Then, under harder acceleration, this oil in the pipe is sucked into the combustion chamber which has the effect of reducing the octane rating of the fuel (think putting diesel in a petrol car) and can cause detonation, which sounds like a tinkling or loud clicking sound (the knock sensor is frantically trying to compensate by adjusting the timing)

The cure?

Well, PSA are fully aware of the problem, and on the latest THP200 that is fitted to the DS4 DSport and Peugeot RCZ THP200 the rear PCV system has been deleted, and the reason for it being kept hush, is because it's not "eco" friendly. But hey, neither is requiring a new engine every 4 months
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paul d r56
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paul d r56

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Super Knocking is spreading but Citreon are on top of it...Sort of!  Vide
PostSubject: Re: Super Knocking is spreading but Citreon are on top of it...Sort of!    Super Knocking is spreading but Citreon are on top of it...Sort of!  Empty20th May 2013, 07:31

Please note that earlier n14 engines without the revised cam cover can cause excess pressure resulting in gaskets failure or oil cap/dip stick being push out and oil all over the engine bay.
Please dont track your car with the rear pcv blocked off if you already have a re-map.

Fitting of OCC will alieviate this issue on N14 engine as well as 6 month oil changes, also Lee at LOHEN is working on a ECU fix for this issue's as this system valve is controlled by the peraminters set by it.


Great information Tom thanks.
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Super Knocking is spreading but Citreon are on top of it...Sort of!  Vide
PostSubject: Re: Super Knocking is spreading but Citreon are on top of it...Sort of!    Super Knocking is spreading but Citreon are on top of it...Sort of!  Empty

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